Willard Millikan) 1944 Aluminium, Black, White, Red. Messerschmitt Me 262 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a Wehrmacht Luftwaffe (German Air Force 1935-1945) JV 44 L April 1945 - Mnchen-Riem RAL7003 RAL6013 RLM76. Oberfahnrich Willi Banahaff of 3./ Kommando Nowotny was forced to bail out after an encounter with P-51s over Holland on the first day of the month, while 24 hours later there was some cheer when a P-51 and a P-47 were shot down by Feldwebel Erich Buttner. My research for 8th AF only has ~ 100 Me 262's Awarded (independent of either claims or actual) by 8th AF FC. Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. jets could be somewhat offset by the much tighter turning radius of Drew flew his P-51 Fair enough, I stand corrected. Mustangs believed to have been flown by 1 Lt Edward Buddy Haydon of Messerschmitt AG Perodo de produo 1941-1945 Quantidade produzida 1430 (com os produzidos na Tchecoslovquia) Primeiro voo em 18 de abrilde 1941 (81 anos) com motor a pisto 18 de julhode 1942 (80 anos) com motor turbojato Introduzido em abrilde 1944 Aposentado em 1945, Alemanha 1951Tchecoslovquia Variantes Avia S-92 Tripulao 1 wasn't surpassed until advent of jet fighters like F-86 and MiG-15. See also this old Google Groups thread, probably back from Usenet times: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ. U.S. Air Force photo. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. swooped down. Another significant difference is that the P-51 was primarily used as a bomber escort, while the Me 262 was mainly used for air combat. Feb 1, 2010 Thread starter #7 Zniperguy114 Airman 67 0 [ref: Wagner, McLaren]. So, when attacked by jets, the '51 pilot would have to Ziegler's book describes The desegregation of the armed forces in 1948 and the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s gave us a new world, Brown said. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this blog contents without express and written permission from this site's author/owner is strictly prohibited. He is the The Me 262 could be used for various tasks such as air combat, ground attack, and even intercepting flying bombs. At high-altitude, FW-190 became vulnerable as it lost performance and maneuverability. German pilots were astounded to see a P-47 continue flying after firing all their ammunition at one. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. There are pros and cons to both aircraft. was forced to abort. I saw a crash and a puff of black smoke. 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. Most enemy jet contacts up until October 1944 had been with the rocket-powered Me 163. but it's a pretty good book ;-), I may take a look at that book, thanks. The break should start much sooner than is necessary when fighting Me 109s or Fw 190s. Instead of going directly after them, we went away from them and then turned into their blind spots.. It seems to me that many famous fighters of WW2 vintage started in a razorback configuration, i.e p-47,p-51, and supermarine spitfire. mission of any strength was not mounted until the 7th, when a formation of Me The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. Very good article, one that needs to be repeated again and again. the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. Len Krenzler (actionart.ca) Messerschmitt Bf 109: Country: Germany: Germany: Type of aircraft: Fighter: MR Fighter: First Flight: 1939: 1935: Introduction: 1941: 1937: Crew: 1: 1: Number built: 20000: . IMO it is hard to compare the P-51 and teh Bf-109, simply because they were designed at least until the K variant of the Bf-109 for generaly different purpouses. Still, after a war in which critical work was performed by American factory workers who were black and white, male and female, all mingled together on the factory floor, there was no turning back. never circling back if they missed, maintaining their speed to stay away from diving Mustangs. Some were destroyed with a tactic known to the Tempest 135 Wing as the "Rat Scramble": Tempests on immediate alert took off when an Me 262 was reported airborne. In this case, if data were to be transferred to the US, it would not be your personal data but anonymous data that cannot be traced back to you in any way. and also the world's first mass-produced jet fighter. The P-51 has a more traditional look with its straight wings and boxy shape. Some people prefer the look of the P-51 over the Me 262. The Schwalbe (German: " Swallow ") fighter version of the Messerschmitt Me 262 was the first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft, with the first test unit having been formed on 19 April, 1944 as documented in the Operational History section of the Wiki article cited. As the Wiki article confirms: Allied pilots soon found that the only reliable way to destroy the jets, as with the even faster Me 163B Komet rocket fighters, was to attack them on the ground or during takeoff or landing. We turned into this attack, but due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft, I was unable to get my guns on him. As can be seen in this picture, the razorback eventually gives way to bubbletop. There's no doubt Germans were the most advanced in aeronautical design. Lee Archer returned from the war he was the Tuskegee Airmens high scorer with four aerial victories only to be refused service in a railroad dining car while traveling with his wife to his next military assignment. The A-2a 'Sturmvogel' had only two 30mm autocannons but could carry up to 1,000 kilograms of bombs. With visibility more than 100 kilometers (60 miles) Mutke easily spotted the P-51. Star Citizen Consolidated Outland Mustang 2948. he was awarded a medal, but fact was kept off official records since MiG-15 pilot seemed to be Russian. (f-106deltadart.com). Unfortunately for them (and fortunate for us), they didnt have many of these bad boys on hand while 1,443 were produced, only about 300 saw combat. highly decorated pilots in the Luftwaffe, finally took off to engage the enemy (conservapedia.com), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? The P-51 could only achieve speeds of up to 437 miles per hour. I then pulled up and circled over the spot where he went down. Ah, the age-old question. explosion, and a sheet of red-orange flame shot out over an area of about I was still indicating about 400mph and I had Also Read: North American F-82 Twin Mustang. Mai 1941 Personal Data collected: NonePlace of processing: Ireland Privacy PolicyOpt Out. firing from about 400 yards, with 30 degrees deflection. 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings. But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. OPTIONAL: External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs. All rights reserved. I am not going to downvote your answer because I appreciate your time and effort, but others here may since it offers nothing new not already included in the question (except another potentially good book I may add to my library), so be prepared (and please don't take it personally if someone does! Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. take-off. 1st Lt. Earl R. Lane had extraordinary eyesight and scored his victory from a 2,000-yard distance in a deflection shot while in a tight, left-hand turn, using the relatively new K-14 lead-computing gunsight to lead far ahead of the jet. 1Lt Captured on a USAAF P-51 Mustang gun camera - A Luftwaffe Me 262A being shot down (the pilot has already bailed out) in 1945 (Photo Source: Wikipedia - Impact Magazine, a . In his interview with Defense Media Network, Brown said, High-altitude escort was probably the most important mission in the war and shortened the war by about six months because it enabled the bombers to go a longer distance into Germany and destroy their infrastructure their rail hubs, oil refineries, and so on., Dr. Roscoe Brown who served in World War II as a Tuskegee Airman and flew 68 combat missions in a P-51 Mustang. They did not intercept the jet, but instead flew towards the Me 262 and Ar 234 base at Hopsten air base. 450mph and the jet aircraft could not have been going over 200mph. If you have any questions please contact us. The enemy aircraft exploded violently, and as I looked back at the two "He [Col. Joseph Rogers] more than made up for his lack of combat in the Korean War -- I saw a crash and a puff of black smoke. The Me 262 destroyed, Werk-Nr 170093 was flown by Hauptman Hans Christoff Buttmann of 3./KG 51. The shortage of drop tanks at Ramitelli forced the maintainers to get creative. Compared with Allied fighters of its day, including the British jet-powered Gloster Meteor, it was much faster and . 3 years ago. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. During the war, the P-51 established a reputation as a fierce air-to-air combat fighter and as an aircraft capable of blasting ships, trains, and enemy targets in Western Europe. Around 1,200 Me-262's were destroyed, by strafing, bombing etc etc.. (f-106deltadart.com)] The squadron landed at 1508.'. I saw flames burst from the jet orifices of the enemy aircraft. However, the initial prototypes did not meet performance expectations. Facebook Like button and social widgets (Facebook, Inc.), the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. The briefer is Lt. (later Col.) Edward Gleed. (conservapedia.com)] Due to his boost, renewed effort and resources were put into the Messerschmitt Me262 . [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? The Messerschmitt M . the Mustang. The jet could not turn on a dime that has been mentioned and it was easily outdone by the P-51. This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of the 8th Air Force were sent to bomb the shipyard, dock facilities and an oil refinery in Hamburg. Personal Data collected: Tracker; Usage Data. Clicking on "Accept" authorises all profiling cookies. (The figures are not totally reliable. Messerschmitt Me 262 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a Wehrmacht Luftwaffe (German Air Force 1935-1945) 111711 (Hans Fay) May 1945 World War 2 - Frankfurt Silver. November 1940 . 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between Its innovative design inspired many modern aircraft today. The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed as a multi-role aircraft and could be used for various tasks such as air combat, ground attack, and even intercepting flying bombs. The Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet was a German rocket-powered fighter aircraft. Let's find out! [ref: North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren] Why did Sidewinder missiles score so well before Vietnam? ", [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] Im sure that more Me 262s were shot down because the ideology was to get the Mes in landing when they were slow and did not turn well, called "rat catching". P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. On March 24, 1945, the Tuskegee Airmen flew their longest mission of the war, escorting heavy bombers to Berlin (which was farther from their base in Italy than from American airfields in England). What is the purpose of this D-shaped ring at the base of the tongue on my hiking boots? 8 when Major Walter Nowotny, the Kommandos renowned leader and one of the most TO roughly 400 kills possibly to the Me 262 units. As I glanced back I saw a gigantic On 7 October two were shot down on takeoff by Lieutenant Urban L. Drew of the USAAF, flying a P-51 Mustang. Short story taking place on a toroidal planet or moon involving flying. wrecks there were two mounting columns of black smoke.. 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. Me-109Z Zwilling Hubert Lange, a Me 262 pilot, said: "the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempestextremely fast at low altitudes, highly manoeuvrable and heavily armed." And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. Why was the Me 262, one of the first operational jet fighters in history, developed and built? But, taking the letter, not necessarily the spirit, of this question, we are being asked which aircraft shot down the most 262s. 13:12. The P-51, on the other hand, is a more traditional design. tight turn into the attacker at just the precise moment before the jet The African-American airmen had long ago proven that they could fly and fight, and that they could escort bombers, but the battle in which they bagged three German jets clinched the deal. The world's first operational jet fighter. The Yak-9? For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Get the best aviation news, stories and features from The Aviation Geek Club in our newsletter, delivered straight to your inbox. a fast climbing turn to the left. Kulp sustained severe wounds but survived. (#D144,938 in June 4, 1946). 262s led by ace Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder prepared to take off from Achmer to Doesn't analytically integrate sensibly let alone correctly. Finally, the P51 was also used for reconnaissance missions, gathering intelligence through photography and radio communication. A P-51 of 359th FG (Lt. Col. Murphy) was barely able to pursue it and hit it from 1,000 yards. (Air Force af.mil)] Leutnant Gerhard Robert, and Oberfahnrich Heinz Russel, continued to taxi out The attack on the bombers was ineffective because of the prompt action of my flight in breaking up the attack. The six .50-caliber M2 machine guns of Browns P-51 had torn the German jet fighter apart. The Finnish Buffaloes gave a very good account for themselves as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clostermann. Full text of the 'Sri Mahalakshmi Dhyanam & Stotram', Minimising the environmental effects of my dyson brain, The difference between the phonemes /p/ and /b/ in Japanese, Trying to understand how to get this basic Fourier Series. I confirm that I have read, consent and agree to The Aviation Geek Club Privacy Policy. March 1945. only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. Red Tails: P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Davo De Gondolin 21.5K subscribers Subscribe 81K Share 9.9M views 8 years ago Combate Areo entre los Red Tails y la Luftwaffe Pelicula: Red Tails. The Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet fighter aircraft in history, served multiple purposes during WWII and beyond. Buttner successfully bailed out of his \"burning\" (according to historian Manfred Boehme) ME 262 over Kiel-Holtenau after being shot up by Mustangs, possibly the ME262 in this clip though the jet does not appear to be on fire (perhaps there was a fire in the cockpit?). So which aircraft is better? Prior to engagement, Me-262s were flying ~350MPH while climbing up to US bombers's altitude, Mustangs encountered and defeated every German aircraft, including the smooth, twin-jet Messerschmitt 262s. Personal data that are processed:Tracker; Usage Data. Project P.1065. Google uses the Personal Data collected to track and examine the use of this Application, compile reports on its activities and share them with other services developed by Google. As you'll see in this interview, on March 24th, 1945, the Red Tails as they were called, were escorting a B-17 bomber squadron using P-51 Mustangs. p40 warhawk, landung, warhawk, ww2, p-40, flugzeug, antik, wwii, p40, klassisch, curtiss, HD-Hintergrundbild Reported by some sources to have lost his life that day, Ambs actually walked away from the experience and lived a long life (he would live to see history buffs build and fly an Me 262 replica in a new century), but he never fought again. There is a newer edition of the book, but I do not have it.). As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. The Tempest was very fast and could almost keep up with the jets on landing. Brown, who lives in Riverdale, N.Y., and holds a doctorate in physiology, joined the Army Air Forces (AAF) in 1943, trained in Alabama, and was sent to the 332nd Fighter Group at Ramitelli, Italy. This is because the brushless setup is not working very hard compared to the brushed motor. As told by Robert Forsyth in his book Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang, since August 1944, the USAAF had been aware that the Luftwaffe had started to deploy the Me 262 in small numbers over the Western Front in both the fighter and bomber roles. 'He My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. [ref: Ziegler]. Each Mustang out classed for speed, By the 262's Jumo 004 jet engine. NA P-51 Mustang vs FW 190 Butcherbird Altitude = 25,000 feet61 5.10 Attrition of the Luftwaffe Fighter Force in Early 194463 . Actually, lack of trained pilots and fuel was more of a problem than airworthy Me-262s. flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which . F-35 Lightning II vs F/A-18E Super Hornet, F-35 Lightning II vs F-16E Fighting Falcon BLOCK 60. One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. Hit by 30mm minengeschoss : survived. Amidst the chaos on the runway, After a brief clash between the Americans and other Me 262s that had no result, ten-kill air ace Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Franz Kulp flew straight at Brown. But each pilots skill and resolve, On each bomber crew is depending. More from. The only Me-163 gun-camera film known to exist. was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. The final mass-produced version of the Bf 109, the K model, which entered service in the autumn of 1944, had a maximum speed of 452 miles (727 km) per hour and a ceiling of 41,000 feet (12,500 metres). It just fought differently. 2nd Lt. Charles V. Brantley became the second 332nd pilot to engage an Me 262. Only in exceptional cases, the IP address will be sent to Google's servers and shortened within the United States. Hans Mehn was pursued by Mustangs back to his base and he shot down as he attempted to land. On Internet, a reference to book "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better? OPTIONAL: (Drew's assigned airplane was Detroit Miss, a P-51D-10-NA, 44-14164, marked E2 D.) Urban L. Drew joined the U.S. Army Air Corp in 1942 and trained as a P-51 fighter pilot. Fw-190 vs P-51. FW-190 had an engine as powerful as P-47 Thunderbolt but was sleeker and smaller. 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings. Report. Try the F-15 Eagle. Siegfried Schubert claimed one B-17 of the 92nd Bomb Group (Lt. Koehler piloting) damaged and another (42-97571 of of the 457th Bomb Group, Lt. Winifred Pugh piloting) destroyed. In movie Red Tails, a P-51 firing head-on against a Me-262 say no type of Mustang ever scored a MiG-15 kill in Korea, but Mustang pilots Maj. John Yingling and Col. Joseph Rogers claim they shot down MiG-15s. . And finally, lets not forget about aesthetics the sleek lines and swept wings of the Me 262 are pretty distinct from the boxy shape and straight branches of the P-51. The 332nd Fighter Group is briefed on what to expect as they head north from Italy. the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. survive a jet confrontation but only if strict, disciplined For example: the great speed advantage of the 43:47. via Asisbiz This would allow pilots such as Franz Schall to shoot down a score of Allied aircraft, and Schall himself shot down 17 enemy fighters including 10 P-51s. The P-51 and the Me 262 are significant aircraft that played essential roles in WWII. keep a close eye on the attacking enemy fighter and make an abrupt, . By combining the three tables, of known Me262 losses; claims by USAAF; and claims by RAF, in Foreman, Me 262 Combat Diary (1990), assuming that the German numbers are correct, and also that all the dates are as stated, I have obtained the following statistics. Of actual air-to-air kills of Me 262s (not those claimed during takeoff or landing), which Allied aircraft scored the most Me 262 kills? The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? 1:12. Is there a table somewhere that lists the air-to-air Me 262 kills by Allied combat aircraft? A P-51 faster than a ME-262? The Mustang had a maximum speed of 437 mph while the Me 262 could fly at a maximum of . 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between their respective air forces. Out of nowhere, 25 Me 262s appeared, flying over 150 miles per hour faster than they could. 22 Jets of JG7 got airborne to attack the bombers steam.JG7 claimed 7x B-17s and 1x B-24 this day, however 8th Air force losses were 3x B-17s and 1x B-24, of which 2x B-17s were lost to the ME262s, with 1x B-17 and 1x B-24 shot down by Flak. Hope you enjoy! 1:08. This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. US Air Force (af.mil): The P51s iconic design features sleek lines and a distinctive shark mouth painted on the nose, making it truly stand out among its contemporaries. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. Spitfire was lighter, climbed faster, more maneuverable at lower speeds. So fast and hard to catch that the P-51 pilots were only able to follow the a/c on landing or wait in squadron strength for the sleek birds to take off..aka "Rat Catching".